Curse

Sleeper Service · Apr 18, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

wow, a compromise to pvp and pve skill separation?...wait...this is not a compromise.....

uh i dont know quite how to look at this, is this solution not MORE confusing than simply separating the 2 for good?

as for the "oh noes nerfs!" there is a reason for that but meh i cant be bothered to explain the way (GW) "meta" functions to you people again.

in any case its a step in the right direction, they just need to be more determined with it and go the whole way.

lacasner · Apr 18, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

PvP needs more updates, not more neglect.

Why is this so hard for people to understand, jesus christ PvE always has Ursan and farming builds people can just run until the end of time. Anet needs to really get their skill balancing priorities straight.

VitisVinifera · Apr 18, 2008, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Avarre and Magikarp, you are BOTH right. But by tying pvp and pve together, it has both sides hurling blame at the other for the miserable state both are currently in. pvp qq'ers are largely justified and correct from their side, as is pve qq'ers. If we each had our own rules which reflected reality in our meta's, things would be much nicer.

Rift · Apr 18, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

I understand what they are trying to do -- try to balance for one last big MAT without consideration to PVE impact, and then revert it all, but the timing of these is a bit awkward.

It will suck if cupcakes start falling for the 3rd Birthday party, and we can't farm them as efficiently now that AR is interrupt bait for those Raptors.

I want my cupcakes! D:

Lykan · Apr 18, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Update - Thursday, April 17, 2008

This month's update is unique. It is a "temporary tournament update" targeted at the final cash-prize tournament, which will take place at the end of April. The skill changes are temporary and will be in effect for only two weeks.
[snip]
* The developers stated that the skill changes will be reverted on May 1st.

Did any body actually read this bit??

Less QQing.

MisterT69 · Apr 18, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

The thing is with all these updates, is that A-net didn't spend the time to test or realize the threats of some skills. They made SoR with it's original duration and power when NF was first released. THEY KNEW what it was capable of, and how great it was. Same thing with splinter weapon and death pact. Yet the problem with A-net is they release these skills, draw people in, and then A-net ALWAYS says

"Ah crap, we really !@#$%^ up. Apparently GW players aren't retarded monkeys and know how to use these skills with l33t effectiveness. Let's nerf em down a bit to cover up our mistakes."

Honestly A-net, you knew about how these skills worked and you didn't realize how good some players are at drawing maximum power from the best skills and making the best builds. We've been doing it since day 1, and instead of making balanced skills, you make insane skills that are too powerful and later nerfed.

Questions...see: Death pact signet 6 months ago, or SoR pre-nerf. Still need convincing? Check out Seed of Life and TNTF before they got nerfed, sometime before August '07

Now I know about the tournament, and how you're reverting the skills back, but it's not like this is THE only big nerf we've had. There have been bigger and worse unfortunately

Sleeper Service · Apr 18, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

Avarre and Magikarp, you are BOTH right. But by tying pvp and pve together, it has both sides hurling blame at the other for the miserable state both are currently in. pvp qq'ers are largely justified and correct from their side, as is pve qq'ers. If we each had our own rules which reflected reality in our meta's, things would be much nicer.

yikes! someone with a sliver of common sense in regards to meta !?! i must be having an acid flashback or something.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 18, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

PvP needs more updates, not more neglect.

Why is this so hard for people to understand, jesus christ PvE always has Ursan and farming builds people can just run until the end of time. Anet needs to really get their skill balancing priorities straight.

I'd argue that PvE needs the updates too, if only to shake things up. Would people seriously find running the same boring-ass farming builds constantly for 3 years fun? Sadly, Anet seems trigger-shy on this stuff, probably because of the resulting bitchfests.

Passive defense needed a nerf. Everything else is completely irrelevant to PvE.

I'm very sad that they're choosing to revert these changes, as that tells me they don't care about balance after May. More than anything else, a lack of updates means the death of the game, not any inconsequential nerf.

ShadowsRequiem · Apr 18, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

Did any body actually read this bit??

Less QQing.

Why bother bitching and fighting is more fun anyways..... And those OMG END OF GUILDWARZ!?! threads are pure gold.

Avarre · Apr 18, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

pvp qq'ers are largely justified and correct from their side, as is pve qq'ers.

The problem with this is that balance changes rarely affect PvE. When they do, most of the balance changes that affect PvE do so because PvE heavily used that skill or mechanic as well, making it a PvE change as much as a PvP one.

It's one thing to contest a pointless or damaging change, but blame being placed on PvP for changing a skill that made up a great number of PvE builds is improper.

Mickey · Apr 18, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Nerf doesn't really matter to me. I always run IAS so Eremite's and Mystic nerf is meh. Is it 1 second, as in, activation 1 second? or is it just a no second activation attack skills?

PvE and PvP need to have seperate rules. Srsly. This whole "it's gonna be like this for 2 weeks cause of a PvP tournament, then everything will be fine" is a load of BS. Just keep it the same in PvE, and update this for PvP, and change it back in 2 weeks so the QQing is done.

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

If you're the one complaining that balance changes are destroying your builds and play experience, aren't you the one who was abusing the skills and lack the creativity to adapt?

PS: Yes. Yes you are.

not to sound offensive, but you dont even know me.

"my" builds havent been touched pve wise, because one:

i play warrior and monk mostly, and the only thing that got hit was aegis (big deal)

and two:

i play whatever i feel like seeing used in pve, because pve isnt that difficult.

what im saying, is that the casual gamers, and the general gws community suffers from even more bad skills being made. the more you nerf into oblivion for whatever reason, the less good skills there are to use, and the steeper the learning curve for new, more creative, or adaptive solutions, steering the less creative into wiki builds (which may or may not be affected) or ursan, which not everyone likes to play.

pvp is where all the close players are, im sorry to break it to you, and in fact, if it wasn't for them and their massive skill abuse, and whining, our skills as a community wouldnt get slammed into the Wastrels Worry catagory every month....

Avarre · Apr 18, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

pvp is where all the close players are, im sorry to break it to you, and in fact, if it wasn't for them and their massive skill abuse, and whining, our skills as a community wouldnt get slammed into the Wastrels Worry catagory every month....

My issue with your reasoning is I've never seen a purely PvP-based update that had a major effect on my PvE play. Almost all major changes are PvE-driven, or a mix of the two.

Even these changes are pretty minor, and are being reverted anyway.

Farming, PvE skills, armor stacking to tank, AoE spam, all of these are PvE skill abuses that people accept because they're in PvE. Yet when some of these get changed (splinter weapon, in this update), people immediately jump at PvP'ers.

Hott Bill · Apr 18, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Well i'm off to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing to delete my paragon now. Least they left SY and TNTF alone.

Rift · Apr 18, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The problem with this is that balance changes rarely affect PvE. When they do, most of the balance changes that affect PvE do so because PvE heavily used that skill or mechanic as well, making it a PvE change as much as a PvP one.

This is incorrect. They affect PVE because of the static nature of NPC builds (enemy NPCs, henchmen, etc.) Some NPC's suddenly become incredibly overpowered, or totally useless (see LoD Mhenlo).

Level designers balanced their work around skill-functionality at that time. It is simply too complex to assert the exact impact of a change over 3 chapters and an expansion within a reasonable period of time without heavily investing time and money in QC, which Anet can't afford now that efforts are put mainly on the next generation of GuildWars.

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The problem with this is that balance changes rarely affect PvE. When they do, most of the balance changes that affect PvE do so because PvE heavily used that skill or mechanic as well, making it a PvE change as much as a PvP one.

It's one thing to contest a pointless or damaging change, but blame being placed on PvP for changing a skill that made up a great number of PvE builds is improper.

please explain how you can possibly say "balance changes rarely affect PvE"...

every skill in the game, every balance for those skills, affects everyones games differently. you have no clue what little Johnny runs, or what casual Tina likes to run... its one thing to have to adapt, but what if they only have one campaign, or are 12, or haven't made it to the point that they know every skill and good alternate solutions for the modern gaming meta???? these are the people that rarely get any consideration, and they paid just as much as we did for the game too...

Div · Apr 18, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Creating a boundry between skills for PvP and PvE is harder then most people think. Stop complaining about it, I highly doubt ANet are going to even consider changing over a thousand skills to make PvErs happy.

Yes they will. PvP is officially dead:

Quote:

You have to understand the scope of the game and everything involved with every change. There are so many other game types, and angles to look at this stuff. Yes there are changes that would make the game more balance but also destroy the balance somewhere else, yes I understand you guys don't care about those aspects of the game, but I do I have to. You know that the vast majority of the community hates it when ANYTHING gets changed? There are a crap ton of things to consider here.

Savio · Apr 18, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

you have no clue what little Johnny runs, or what casual Tina likes to run...

Johnny and Tina will run those skills anyway, because casual PvE revolves around playing what looks cool.

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

My issue with your reasoning is I've never seen a purely PvP-based update that had a major effect on my PvE play. Almost all major changes are PvE-driven, or a mix of the two.

Even these changes are pretty minor, and are being reverted anyway.

Farming, PvE skills, armor stacking to tank, AoE spam, all of these are PvE skill abuses that people accept because they're in PvE. Yet when some of these get changed (splinter weapon, in this update), people immediately jump at PvP'ers.

im sorry but i can't continue a debate with a lack of your cooperation in understanding that the skill changes and your game play mentality/style, aren't synonymous...

too many people play this game for anet to drive us into the range of only having about 120 good skills to choose from, and still expect the casual, or even advanced gamers to want to hassle themselves from playing a fun game, into making it a chore of learning the steep, unforgiving curve of competitive play, or advanced strategiy...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Johnny and Tina will run those skills anyway, because casual PvE revolves around playing what people think look cool.

casual has a multitude of meanings, and not everyone who falls into that category is a moron.

its the thinking process you just displayed that shows the utter lack of care and consideration for the HUGE margin of people who simply want to get the value of the games they paid for.

(mind you, the high end pvp'ers are VERY small percent of the community)

Avarre · Apr 18, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rift

Some NPC's suddenly become incredibly overpowered, or totally useless (see LoD Mhenlo).

This was dealt with in a subsequent update, I believe?

Quote:

Level designers balanced their work around skill-functionality at that time. It is simply too complex to assert the exact impact of a change over 3 chapters and an expansion within a reasonable period of time without heavily investing time and money in QC, which Anet can't afford now that efforts are put mainly on the next generation of GuildWars.

Areas of Guild Wars are in no way balanced against the players. PvE skills, old trinity builds with tanks, farming and so on - nearly all skill changes won't make much difference to the ratio of player:mob power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

please explain how you can possibly say "balance changes rarely affect PvE"...

No character class has been rendered entirely useless. No area has become uncompleteable. Builds might go in and out of fashion or effectiveness, but the overall PvE game isn't really changed, since you can still just stroll in and slaughter everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

haven't made it to the point that they know every skill and good alternate solutions for the modern gaming meta????

Guild Wars was originally meant to be skill-based. If someone's skill isn't enough to complete an area, they should refine their tactics, tweak their builds, and so on. A player with no knowledge of how the game works or what is effective shouldn't be having success purely due to powerful skills.

Casual player is not the same as noob. A casual player might not play often or for long periods of time, but it doesn't mean they're clueless about how to play, or incapable of learning.

Quote:

making it a chore of learning the steep, unforgiving curve of competitive play, or advanced strategiy...

PvE is not competitive. PvE is not unforgiving. PvE is not advanced. You can try as many times as you want and you lose nothing from dying. There's nothing to stop new players for tweaking skills and trying out combinations as they progress through the game, and very rarely are you going to get punished for it.

Quote:

or are 12

It's a teen-rated game.